Joy Denalane & Ilgen-Nur: “We are angry and we are sad”

Two artists from two generations, two women who grew up in Germany and have to fight racism and inequality every day. A conversation with JOY DENALANE and ILGEN-NUR about experiences, prejudices and music - and about what needs to change in this country

Although Joy Denalane and Ilgen-Nur Borali are meeting for the first time and are worlds apart musically, the two immediately form an alliance. The Afro-German soul singer, who has been actively involved in identity and sexism debates for 20 years, and the young guitarist, who is finally adding a queer, post-migrant perspective to Germany's white and male-dominated rock music, have the same final boss: the rigid structures of a majority society that champions diversity but actually wants to change little about the entrenched conditions.

"We are angry. And we are sad," the two say in the ROLLING STONE interview: About still having to do educational work on structural racism, sexism and exclusion in 2020. Things that are part of their reality, which are still played down by people who have never experienced discrimination - not least in the music business. At the same time, it has never been more promising to talk about these things than now. Since the tragic death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, a wave of indignation has been sweeping the world. And topics such as police violence and white supremacy even seem to be reaching the mainstream in Germany. "An opportunity to come together and make demands," says Denalane. But the debate should actually be the task of the majority now. "Because it is their problem, not ours." It is high time to listen. Even if it sometimes hurts.

JOY DENALANE: We hadn't met before. But I knew who Ilgen-Nur was. Nine months ago, someone told me about your record. And then I followed you on Instagram pretty quickly. I was really looking forward to our conversation today because I'm sure it's going to be great!
ILGEN-NUR: Of course I knew who you were. Your music isn't that familiar to me because it's a genre that I'm not really into. But of course I know the hits. And I know what you stand for. That's why I was happy that we were thrown together like this.
J: I was actually surprised that ROLLING STONE had the idea of naming two women from the otherwise underrepresented BIPOC community
(BIPOC is an acronym for “Black, Indigenous and People of Color”) together, as if to say: Now you can have a bigger presence here. I always perceived it as a very male, white magazine.

I: ROLLING STONE is very important to me because it is still the biggest rock magazine and rock is my genre. I buy it every now and then. (Laughs) Of course there are many white male musicians that I think are great. Jeff Buckley and Elliott Smith are two of my heroes. But I find it strange that I never see a woman with a guitar on the cover of a magazine, or even never saw one as a teenager. I'm happy that we're here and can address these issues together. But I'm also wondering whether we're interesting now because our music is good and we're important as artists, or because the time has come when we can no longer ignore the issue of diversity.
J: I find it ambivalent. On the one hand, I think it's great to do a story like this with you. At the same time, I think: Why only now? And why people like us? On the scale of BIPOC, we are actually more of the light skin faction...
I: I am super white passing!
J: Yes, light-skinned and white-passing: Is that the most that ROLLING STONE is prepared to do now? There are great articles in ROLLING STONE. And the people on the cover are all great musicians, of course. And there were also covers with Prince. But unfortunately most of them are just posthumous stories: Miles Davis, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix ... Gary Clark Jr. was never on the cover of ROLLING STONE either.
I: Or Joan Armatrading. Or Sister Rosetta Tharpe.

“In general, I am happy to talk about these topics and I think it is important that people talk about them.”

J: Guitar music is not white music. And if people say that Beyoncé is too mainstream for us and we don't want to portray her, why not use Solange? I have also noticed the underrepresentation of women time and time again. Because it does not even remotely reflect what the music landscape has to offer. We will have to watch how this continues. Whether the current attention to diversity is part of a turning point or just a quick adjustment to world events or our own guilty conscience. One thing is sad, of course: that people have to die in brutal ways for such energy to spread around the world and for important issues such as inequality to finally come to the fore and for a country like Germany to finally talk about police violence. Or about its own colonial history.
I: Or about Seehofer, who claims that there is no racism in Germany and that the police therefore do not need to know anything about racial profiling. I have the feeling that
other voices are being heard in the mainstream for the first time. This is hugely important and absolutely timely.
J: Without George Floyd, we would not have seen these problems so clearly. This is an opportunity, also for the community, to come together and make demands with a new awareness. That's why I think it's good that we're coming together here now. Because you are, so to speak, the new generation.
I: Generally, I'm happy to talk about these topics and I think it's important to talk about them. But I don't always feel like it. It's very emotionally draining. I would probably much rather talk about guitar models.

J: You can't always talk about things like this with the same energy and strength at all times. My political work has therefore always been more of a wave-like process: there were phases in my career when I was very active and often appeared on talk shows. It was fascinating, brutal and often downright damaging how much I was laughed at, especially in the early days. And it is actually a double-edged sword: speaking publicly about experiences of racism is something very personal, and I don't always think it's right to focus on the personal because it distracts from the empirical evidence. Because empirical evidence is the best tool for such important topics. But I was also laughed at when I addressed the topic more generally as a social phenomenon. Then came the classics like: "Oh come on, that doesn't exist here anymore," or, even worse: "I can't imagine that. Maybe you're a bit too sensitive." You need a very thick skin not to despair at such experiences. You don't emerge from such situations unscathed.

Because as a minority you are always moving in an unprotected space - compared to a majority that is in agreement on certain points. That is very tiring. And it has become part of my reality, which I find a little sad. I did not choose for racism to dominate my life. But what are the options? Do you make yourself small and go with the flow as best you can? Or do you rebel and be loud? My parents prepared me to stand up, to disagree and to remain strong when I encounter resistance.

I: Of course, many people don't see that for me such a conversation isn't just a talk show, a radio interview or a newspaper article. It's my reality. Not a day goes by when I don't have to think about sexism, racism and homophobia.
J: And it seeps into your everyday life, into your interactions with friends and family. Recently my son, who is now 19, said: "Have you ever noticed that we as a family can't just have a superficial conversation?" We always have to be deep, to analyze things. That's probably because you always have to grapple with your own identity as a supposed stranger and with why you are not accepted in the majority society. Sometimes I think: Why do I always have to talk about it and be the public godfather of these things? Let the white majority talk about it. After all, it's their problem and not mine.

ROLLING-STONE: The conservative “Focus” columnist Jan Fleischhauer recently wrote that he felt that being white today was something like the original sin for which he and everyone else must now collectively atone…
I: Yes, there it is again, white fragility. What about the minorities that have been tarred with the same brush for centuries? When you're part of the majority, you're not used to having fingers pointed at you. That's why I'm so grateful to you for going through such things for artists like me.
If there hadn't been voices like Joy in Germany or the Riot Grrrls in the USA, it would be much harder for me to explain myself and assert myself today.

J: Unlike 20 years ago, we now have a vocabulary to name things. So we don't just have feelings and describe them in a rigid way, but we can classify phenomena and emotions using good scientific language. This is a great help for your generation to classify intersectionality and give the problems that affect marginalized groups the right importance. Unfortunately, we didn't have this at hand in the past.
I: This also brings new topics into focus that need to be discussed. For example, how many non-binary people are actually present in rock music.
J: That's true. When I was your age, queerness in all its facets was a topic that never really made it to the surface. It practically didn't exist in the German pop world.

“Even as a representative of a supposedly new generation, I have to say: Not much has changed so far”

I: Which queer personalities could you see on German television? Hella von Sinnen, perhaps. I searched for a long time in German music and found nothing.
J: In the homophobic hip hop world, this is still largely the case.
I: I can be openly queer today. But these struggles still exist. In addition to magazines and award ceremonies, there are also essential things like festival line-ups. Even as a representative of a supposedly new generation, I have to say that not much has changed so far. Only two years ago there was this Photoshop series: What would German festivals look like without men? They were empty spaces with two or three female bands in the corner. And I also suspect that women are still paid less than men.
J: The participation of women in festivals is still disastrous. And then the argument always comes: "Well, there aren't that many good female musicians."

RS: Joy, you are an ambassador for the Keychange initiative, which is committed to more diversity and gender balance in the music industry. Are you already noticing any changes?
J: Keychange is just one small voice in a sea of voices. The idea is good, but there needs to be a lot more of them. The structures are simply very patriarchal, but at least the big companies have realized that this self-assured calm is no longer appropriate. That there is friction. That there are voices that are getting loud. And that an issue like diversity needs to be pushed forward. Teams need to be installed in the companies to monitor this, question things and formulate demands.
I: I am also part of Keychange and think it is important, but I also know that the offices of the major labels do not look as they should. It starts with who is in the leadership positions and makes the decisions. White men in leadership positions do not have to be so afraid or lose themselves in white guilt. More diversity does not mean doom. They could also simply say: I am aware of my position and my power and use it to give marginalized voices a place.

“I don’t want a feminism that is not intersectional, that is, that doesn’t include black women, trans women or Muslim women.”

RS: Would you also support a quota for women?
J: Yes, I think quotas are a good basis for establishing change. Because then it's not so easy for traditional cliques to get their way. This is not a permanent solution, but rather a first step towards systemic change.
I: I'm not sure what to think about quotas. When this wave of feminism came along a few years ago, I thought we were actually much further along in the discourse. I don't want a feminism that isn't intersectional, that doesn't include black women, trans women or Muslim women.
J: Here too, it is difficult to evaluate a movement when it is still in its early stages. You need more experience in the music sector, at least five to ten years, to see whether anything has really changed or whether the spirit of optimism was just due to hype that the industry had to give in to in order not to lose face. In order to really make adjustments in this huge industry, you need a lot of work, a lot of control and also a lot of time.
I: Even in 2020, it is still difficult to make guitar music as a woman. And I am actually in a privileged position. I am white-passing, a cis woman without a disability. And my team, my band, my management consist almost entirely of white cis men. (Cis: Gender identity corresponds to biological sex.) I am aware of this and ask myself what I can do to change it. It is about making room for minorities. Not out of pity, but out of conviction. The exclusion on and off stage is also a question of safety: If I go backstage and there are only guys there, I feel unsafe. And it is a fact that people often become aggressive at concerts.

RS: Have you ever met any Harvey Weinstein types?
J: Yes, indeed. I could now lament my suffering about men who have used their positions of power to act in abusively. But questions like whether it has happened to me and how I deal with it also objectify me. So basically: I usually react and defend myself immediately. But it often leaves me feeling overwhelmed because a line is suddenly crossed. And many people take advantage of this feeling of being overwhelmed. I remember how once, just before a talk show, ten seconds before I had to go on stage, a guy, a well-known rock guitarist, grabbed my butt. And then I had to sit with him on the show. Disgusting.

“John Lennon also beat women. And the records still sell very well”

I: I've had my own experiences. But when you speak publicly about such attacks in the music industry, you quickly find yourself in the role of victim. And unfortunately, these guys often still get away with it. It's always been like that and it still is, from Ryan Adams to Justin Bieber. John Lennon also hit women. And the records still sell very well. You can tell: We're angry...
J: … and we are sad.
I: I can imagine that someone who is reading this interview and has not dealt with these issues before will think that we come across as very aggressive. But anyone who is now unsettled or angry should perhaps first deal with the issue. And that includes simply listening and then reflecting and educating yourself. We live in the age of the internet and podcasts. The information is all out there and accessible at any time. But it would also be important to put topics like racial profiling on the school curriculum.

J: You should definitely look at the school books, the history books, but also the biology books. Everything I know about German colonialism I had to teach myself. I never learned anything about it at school.
I: Me neither. You have to teach yourself all that later. But if you live in a white bubble, you're probably not that interested in it. Or the NSU complex: we didn't talk about that at school. But the fact that these cases have not been solved in the long term is a very important topic for this country and not just for me as a German-Turkish person. My parents didn't talk to me about it at home, probably because it's just scary. As a child and teenager, I also had problems with my name for a long time. I often had teachers who always pronounced it wrong. They said it was too complicated for them - which is one thing above all: disrespectful. When I then had to choose a stage name, it quickly became clear: I deliberately chose my Turkish first name. I wanted people to have to remember it. I wanted to see it on festival posters. I wanted people to finally get used to Arabic and Turkish names.

J: In any case, we need people who are willing to see that there is an imbalance, even if they cannot identify it exactly. But this willingness must come from the majority of society. And they should not wait for people like us to offer something. It is a task, it is work - and not just a feeling of solidarity.
I: People who want to bring this openness with them have to be aware that it will be uncomfortable to learn about these issues and realize that they are part of the problem. The same applies to music history, by the way. You should realize and appreciate that the origins of the music you love - whether it is techno or soul or rock - go back to black people who worked under difficult circumstances. The Rolling Stones did not invent rock'n'roll.

Ilgen-Nur

"The terms 'power' and 'nap' describe my music very well," says Ilgen-Nur Borali and laughs. With the album of the same name, the Berlin-based musician released one of the best indie rock debuts last year, 32 minutes of calm, disarmingly written hymns somewhere between Kurt Vile and a Lana Del Rey surfing on sawtooth guitars. The 24-year-old is currently working on the follow-up and is preparing for a guest appearance in LA.

You grew up in a small Swabian town. Did that influence your life as a musician?
I felt very alone there, there was no one who listened to the same music as me. When I was 19 or 20, I worked in a bakery in a shopping center in the neighboring village and served butter pretzels and coffee to Swabian seniors. I always thought: I would rather live in Berlin and play in a band. But if I had grown up in Berlin, I wouldn't have had to escape into a dream world and maybe I wouldn't have made any music at all in the end...

Was it clear to you from the beginning that you wanted to sing in English?
Yes, I did. That was because I hardly listened to German music. Which in turn was because I hardly found any role models or figures to identify with here. My parents mainly listened to Turkish music at home. But as a musician, that didn't really influence me either, except perhaps with a certain drama, which is also present in my music.

Which musicians do you identify with more?
Joan Armatrading, an incredibly good guitarist. Brittany Howard from the Alabama Shakes. Sasami, Japanese Breakfast, Black Belt Eagle Scout. And I'm a huge fan
by Mitski. Their lyrics describe my reality much more than those of German indie bands.

Now you are an identification figure for people who don't feel like they belong. Does that make you happy?
The thought of being an identification figure for others scares me a little. I'm still very young myself. But if I can motivate someone to learn to play the guitar or make music, then my job is done. My music isn't aimed at a specific minority, but at loners in general.

Joy Denalane

Shortly after her debut, "Mamani," was released in 2002, Joy Denalane was named "Queen of German Soul" by MTV. "I was always a queen without a kingdom," says the 47-year-old, who is actually pretty much alone to this day with her seemingly natural mixture of Afro-American musical tradition and German lyrics. After adding more R&B and hip hop influences to "Gleisdreieck," the Berlin native is releasing another classic soul album in September with "Let Yourself Be Loved" - the first by a German artist to be released on the historic Motown label.

You had already finished writing the songs for “Let Yourself Be Loved” in 2015. Why is the album only being released now?
The songs were very soulful from the start, a bit retro. I had a vision of how they should sound, but I just couldn't get it translated. That had never happened to me before. And then with the album "Gleisdreieck" I turned to a completely different, modern sound, perhaps also as a kind of counter-proposal to this then unreleased soul record, which after a while became something like my personal "Lost Tapes". (Laughs).

In the end, you finished it together with the pianist and producer Roberto Di Gioia, with whom you have been working for years. How did the Motown connection come about?
When the album was almost finished, someone from my record company presented it in America. And they actually wanted to release it. That blew me away: the first release by a German artist on Motown! For me, it was so abstract and completely far away. We produced the record more or less on our own, two soul nerds and the sound engineer Jan Krause in a basement in Unterföhring! It was never our goal to record a classic Motown album. Our common thread in terms of sound was somewhere between 1976 and 1979, but the songwriting and production are modern. The fact that the album is now being released by Motown is a dream come true.